What is exactly meant by this term? Yes, games have system, we know this, but what is system and what isn't system? For most people, when they say "System", they mean resolution mechanic. To them BRP is percentile roll under Target Number equal to skill. Yep! That's system!
So any game that uses percentile roll under is ripping off BRP, but that only measures chance of success. What about damage/quality of success? Is that part of the system? Uh, yeah, that's system too. How damage is measured is also part of it.
But then, what about initiative? Is initiative part of the system? Umm, OK, sure! So system is chance + quality + initiative! That works, right?
Well what about chargen? Random roll, point allocation, random lifepath, determined lifepath, write down key words, draw a picture - these things are part of the system, right? Umm, yeah - I guess so. Traveller wouldn't be the same without random lifepath. OK, so Chargen is in!
How about advancement after character generation? Earn XPs for killing things? For treasure? Every session? Check off a skill you use? Or maybe one you fail at? Advance over time? Advance as the story calls for it? Is this System too? Yeah, this is probably system too. This is a lot more complex than you might think!
OK, how about Situational Modifiers? Personality mechanics? Attacks of Opportunity? Range zones? Sensory/Notice checks? Hit Location? Vehicle rules? Shut up! Shut up! Yeah, these are system too. It all affects the flavor of the game.
So if I change one of these things, like the vehicle rules, I'm changing the system? Yeah - no! You're not! Vehicle rules are peripheral!
OK, so some parts of system are more equal than others? Yeah! Got it in one!
So, what can I not change and still have the same system? Uh, the resolution mechanic? That's core!
OK. If I change the resolution mechanic, but leave everything else the same, it's a different system? Yeah! Right! I think!
Then the resolution mechanic defines the system. Yep! Wait! No! Crap! I'm back at the beginning again!
-clash
A word you’re looking for is “subsystem”: A system that is a part of a larger system.
ReplyDeleteHi Robert:
ReplyDeleteNot really - I'm looking for a way to figure out what makes a system a system. Consider - is game A the same system as game B if the only difference is in the resolution system? How about if all the sub-systems are changed exect the resolution system? How about if you are given options on all sub-systems, including resolution? Is what you run the same as what Joe runs if you have no idea what options Joe is using? How about if Joe usees all different options? I have a system that will do all of those things, thus I have to think about stupid stuff like this.
-clash
-clash
I think the problem you are facing Clash, is that it is one of subjective perception on the part of the observer and you are looking for an objective qualifiable definition. The best you can say is "In my experience" or "From what I have seen" folks define system as X. I agree with you that in most cases folks are defining system as the TR mechanism, however, I will also say that this is a shallow and superficial analysis. I believe people's definition goes deeper than that and in fact embraces aspects that are not categorizable by them. So, they may refer to a % roll under system but in their head they are thinking of how the combat ran, the trouble they had with the vehicle system and how that quirky magic system was kind of cool.
ReplyDeleteJust a theory though.
I think you got it, Bill! Most people tend to use these labels for a wad of experiences, reminiscences, and hearsay leavened with factoids that is all somehow related - Like my great-grandpa's axe, still going strong for 100 years, though the handle's been replaced three times and the bit twice. So I end up trying to nail down water. They know what they mean by system! I should stop trying to confuse things! :D
ReplyDelete-clash
Or, to put it another way, the answer to “Are these the same system?” depends on the specific reason why you are asking that question at a specific time. It’s an incomplete and unanswerable question without context.
ReplyDeleteIn one context, I will argue that every pre-2000 edition of D&D and AD&D are essentially the same system. (In another, I’ll even include 3e.) In another context, I’ll argue that B/X and BECMI are different systems.
Hi Robert:
ReplyDeleteYes, exactly! Unless both the people involved are using the same context, you can get a bizarre disjoint here.
-clash
I use "system" to talk about the model that the game uses to represent actions. How do you make a character, how do you roll dice, and how do you take damage are all parts of that.
ReplyDelete